Interview with Dr. Natasha Williams, Founder, N. S. Williams Psychology Professional Corporation, Canada

INTERVIEW HIGHLIGHTS:

• Gain insight into black women’s archetype and why it can hold them back from their potential
• How the Church and faith can impact mental health
• Why the Black Canadian Women’s experience varies from others
• What advocacy is and how to implement it to regain your power
• When leading a social initiative, how to not become consumed that you can no longer serve

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Interview with Dr. Natasha Williams, Founder, N. S. Williams Psychology Professional Corporation; Canada

Dr. Natasha Williams moves women from "typical self-care" to radical self-care by redefining selfishness so that they can improve their physical, emotional and mental health. During her career as a Clinical Psychologist and one of the founding Clinical Directors of "Allied Psychological Services," she has empowered many women to challenge their gender, cultural and ethnic paradigms to create a new narrative for themselves so they can work through their healing process, live their life on their own terms and ultimately become the best versions of themselves. Dr. Natasha Williams' work is published in academic journals, and she has written three books. She is also an accomplished international professional speaker and a member of the Canadian Association of Professional Speakers. She has traveled across Canada and the United States, and around the world to places such as Hawaii, Peru, Japan, South Africa, Trinidad, Suriname, Haiti, Jamaica, and India. She has spoken at major conferences, trained medical staff, and lectured at post-secondary institutions.

United Nation’s Sustainable Development Goal(s) addressed:
#3. Good Health and Well-being, #5. Gender Equality, #10. Reduced Inequalities

Social impact:
During Dr. Williams career as a Clinical Psychologist and one of the founding Clinical Directors of "Allied Psychological Services," she has empowered many women to challenge their gender, cultural and ethnic paradigms to create a new narrative for themselves so they can work through their healing process, live their life on their own terms and ultimately become the best versions of themselves.

Website: http://www.drnatashawilliams.com

Interview with Dr. Natasha Williams, N. S. Williams Psychology Professional Corporation; Canada

Note: This interview is transcribed using AI software, which means, the transcription is not perfect. Watch the video or listen to the podcast to hear our guest’s wisdom in her own words. If you want to see more interviews like this, please comment below!

[00:00:20] Suzanne F. Stevens: Welcome, to you, me, we amplified meet me and podcasts. I’m Suzanne F Stevens, your host, and welcome to those who are joining us live. Let us know you’re joining live and leave a comment so we can say hello and welcome to those who are watching the recording. This episode is sponsored by you, me, we community women, leading social impact.

If you have a social impact and want to grow it, and you and your business visit the community tab at you. Me, we.ca I am so excited for our guests, Dr. Natasha Williams, clinical psychologist, who makes women from typical self-care move to radical self-care by redefining what selfishness is so that they can improve their physical, emotional, and mental health.

Such an important thing after two years of the pandemic. During her career as a clinical psychologist and one of the founding clinical directors of allied psychology services, she has empowered many women to challenge their gender, cultural and ethnic paradigms to create a new narrative for themselves so they can work through their healing process, live their life on their own terms and ultimately become the best versions of themselves. Coming to you from Toronto, Ontario, Canada, please welcome. And if I can call it Dr. Natasha if that’s Okay.

Hello.

[00:01:50] Dr. Natasha Williams: Thank you so much, Suzanne. It’s a pleasure to be here.

[00:01:54] Suzanne F. Stevens (2): And it’s such a pleasure to interview you as a fellow professional speaker and someone who spoke at the you, me, we international Wednesday the last year was a year ago, at that event, I’m excited to dig deeper into your expertise and the social impact that it creates. So welcome and great to have this conversation with you today.

[00:02:13] Dr. Natasha Williams: Awesome. Thank you.

[00:02:15] Suzanne F. Stevens: So why don’t we dive right into it? What was the catalyst for you to decide to become a clinical psychologist?

[00:02:23] Dr. Natasha Williams: Oh, my goodness.

To become a clinical psychologist, I have to go back to my mother, and I lost her at 13 to breast cancer. Just mere weeks before I was to start high school but in though, and that’s a little bit of time that I had with her. She has such an impact now. She wasn’t a psychologist herself, but it was how she embodied and embraced her position in the Dominique and community.

So she immigrated here from the Commonwealth of Dominica. So the way that she just presented herself, her motto was if I’m being lifted, I’m lifting others as well. So how do I not only help myself but help others. And it was in that spirit, and it was something as simple as moving from an apartment to a house, to another house, but not leaving anybody behind.

If I can do this, I am also going to help you to do it as well. So,it was just how she presented herself in the community. That was just an absolute joy to see. And how the others in the committee completely honored her and respected her. So, the minute I entered high school, I knew I wanted to be in a profession that I would be able to amplify and help others.

And I naturally went into psychology, which was interesting. In comparison to other places, psychiatry, for example, does some similar work, but I wasn’t into the medication aspects of mental health. I really believe that if I understood the basis of behavior, I could see my gifts on my talents could truly come to the surface.

So that’s how I started my career.

[00:04:00] Suzanne F. Stevens: What a beautiful story. And for your mother to have an impact at such a young age. She put you on a trajectory for your life. That’s incredible. Many mothers would envy that because for years and years and years they’re around, and kids never listened to them.

Although I know you work with several diverse clients, there is an emphasis on black women. Why is that?

[00:04:30] Dr. Natasha Williams: It’s such a convoluted and complicated issue, but I think the way to even start with it is that there is a stigma in particular, in the black community, in regards to mental health and mental illness.

And it actually pushes us away from actually getting the help we need. Adding to that stigma of mental health and mental illness in the black community, there’s also this, what I call an archetype, and it’s the archetype of the strong black woman. And it’s almost like a mask or a veil that many black women wear, which also, on top of the stigma of mental health, doesn’t allow us in, my eyes to be human.

It means that we have to be strong and uphold everybody everything. At the same time, we almost dehumanized ourselves and did not allow ourselves to get the help or whatever we needed to be fully human and full black women in all of our glory. And I noticed that I was, I’m not immune to that either.

I noticed that I was going down that same trajectory just in terms of a lot of the myths and the paradigms of the strong black woman complex and not allowing myself to be who I am as a human and embrace all of those emotions and going down a road where I was starting to lose my health. So being able to bring myself back, also bring in my clinical expertise, being able to put all of that together, I wanted to make sure that other black women were also afforded all of this information and starting to dismantle some of these paradigms that have been holding us for generations.

[00:06:10] Suzanne F. Stevens: If we could spend just a little time on that more time on that because I think it’s such an important piece. Do you think that a strong black woman is a universal comment or North American? And then I have a follow-up question.

[00:06:32] Dr. Natasha Williams: Yeah. It’s interesting. I think it manifests itself in a variety of ways depending.

So, I do believe that there is an archetype of the strong black woman, but we also have to layer culture. So, I find that there is a North American archetype to it. But then, when you go to the Caribbean and add the Caribbean context and culture, it manifests in some different ways, but there are certain similarities.

I can’t speak example for the continent per se, but I believe that, if you look at the African continent, you may have a lot of similarities, but some differences that culture also put into play when we’re talking about the strong black woman. But I do believe that there are quite a few similarities, just how as black women, we are juxtaposed in the larger black society.

[00:07:23] Suzanne F. Stevens: Yeah. And as, as you know, Natasha, I spent much time in Africa and don’t profess to know all, but it’s interesting. I didn’t hear about the strong black woman until I came back home to North America. I didn’t hear about it there, but that being said, I concur with your expertise, of course, but also with my observation and reflection. That it did exist in many African countries, and yes, culturally, it is definitely different.

But at the end of the day, the mother kept the family together, which was a hundred percent apparent. And every country that I traveled to in African, every woman I interviewed in Africa, was the one that kept that family together and made sure it was on the right trajectory.

[00:08:15] Dr. Natasha Williams: Absolutely. And I also believe that the strong black woman has had some interesting merits and some good merits as well.

So, I don’t throw the whole thing away. But I also believe in that what I’ve also noticed is that black women will punish themselves if they don’t believe that they’re up to that certain standard. If certain aspects of the family are falling apart or not going as planned, then a lot of times the woman shoulders the burden of whatever they believe is falling apart, not looking at other circumstances, environmental or whatever the case may be.

So that’s where a lot of the punishment and self-punishment comes in because while they’re upholding and supporting the entire family, they also take on the burden of anything that possibly is going wrong. And, they ended up sacrificing themselves almost to their detriment. So, I see how that paradigm can become such a mask for many black women, not to reach out for help, not to be, feel devalued at times as women, because they believe that their womanhood is being compromised.

[00:09:24] Suzanne F. Stevens: Two places I want to go with this, one is some of the barriers Canadian black women have. So let’s start with, I’m going to put books out there because I don’t want to lose the other one because you were talking on this as well is not only what some of those barriers are, but the barriers for them to seek assistance. Let’s start with the barriers to seeking assistance.

[00:09:52] Dr. Natasha Williams: So the various to seek assistance, there’s so many different bears, and especially in terms of how women place themselves, for example, as the cornerstone of the family, when we start talking about access, we start to talk about things such as economics and earning potential, that ability in terms of being able to not only seek the services and support that they need but being able to afford it.

So that’s one of the spaces in terms of the ability even to seek help. Now, here’s the other thing, if I believe as a woman and this strong black woman archetype that reaching out for help is actually a sign of weakness, I don’t want to go because I want to uphold this paradigm. So in aiming to uphold this paradigm, I am not going to seek out help.

I’m going to do everything that I can to do this myself because the minute I go outside of the family or outside of myself, I’m showing a sign of weakness and that compromises the strong black woman that I’m aiming to be. And that barrier in of it itself, ends up being a significant difficulty to aim, to get the help that somebody needs. Even sharing it with somebody else, not even a professional per se, a family member or somebody else, if I share this, it may show cracks in the armor because I wear this armor as a strong black woman. And the minute I start to show cracks, I start to show vulnerability and strong black women technically do not exist in the same room.

[00:11:39] Suzanne F. Stevens: Is it the differences in cultures so much so as the readiness for our culture and bear with me on this.

There was a time when white women and still a time when many white men or BIPOC people don’t want to share their information either. And it came to a point where we eventually did. And are much more open now, not a sweeping statement alert, right? Cause not everybody will. In the black community do you see that there will be a shift, or do you think that shift is going to be a longer, harder shift to make, to actually seek help?

[00:12:29] Dr. Natasha Williams: You’re absolutely right. I think it is going to take a longer time. There’s been inherent mistrust of the healthcare system in the black community. Because the medical community has used black bodies and black individuals for such a significant period of time as Guinea pigs. And so many aspects that we all we talk about, for example, Henrietta Lacks and the experiments that they did with herself and that they continue to use til this day without permission.

And when we think about that history and how the healthcare system has continually been used by black bodies for experimentation, not to our health, but to our detriment, killing so many or maiming so many us to now ask for this same health community for our trust, there is an inherent mistrust, and I think it’s going to take a significant period of time to actually build that trust back, if at all.

So, it’s a tough one because we obviously, as a black community want to be the healthiest as we can be, but the inherent mistrust of westernized medicines and the medical system, I think will make it extremely difficult.

[00:13:49] Suzanne F. Stevens: This is where you come in and this is where your social impact is so profound.

[00:13:53] Suzanne F Stevens: And why I really wanted to interview you is because, with someone like yourself, they see themselves in you. Not only because you’re a black woman, but also because of your journey you admit to you also, we’re getting caught up with that archetype as well. So how are you able to break through that barrier and wall that has been built by frankly, the white community and give people access to help?

[00:14:26] Dr. Natasha Williams: It is such an amazing question because I think what’s also very interesting is that I’ve, although I have been training. In a westernized country. My training is in Canada and the United States. What I also had to recognize is how do I dismantle some of the decolonizing education and training that I have received as well?

While I understand that, I also had to understand what are some of the indigenous or African centered principles that are also going to inform my practice. And I bring all of that into the engagements and interactions that I have. So yes, you see me as a black woman in the space as a psychologist taking care of mental illness.

But I also have had to understand that I’m not also bringing paradigms that have inherently hurt our community. I’m also bringing a very decolonized, holistic African-centered perspective to our community as well. So that what it does, it starts to bring about an environment and culture of safety.

In the space so that people can feel an increased amount of safety when they’re starting to share and understand what it is that’s been going on with them for such a long period of time. And bringing that decolonizing history to the therapy has also been very important so they can understand what the grassroots and the foundation has been in a lot of our hurt and mistrust.

And how can we then position ourselves for our own healing?

[00:16:08] Suzanne F. Stevens: It begs the question? There’s no doubt you’re phenomenal at what you do, but how do you get someone from not needing help to even trusting to ask you for it?

[00:16:28] Dr. Natasha Williams: I find a lot of things, the very interesting and in our community in particular.

So I’ve been visible in the community for several years, and that has been volunteering for example, with grassroots organizations or community health care centers. So my face has always been there and I think that’s the first point of contact of trust. So it’s not, I’m not like this fly by night person that just came along out of nowhere.

I’ve been doing the work and I’ve been in the community, and I’ve been doing community work for several years. So that sort of starts to build that area of trust. The other interesting thing is that a lot of people will come to me when all of a sudden, they don’t feel like they have anywhere else to go.

I’ve been in the mental health system for quite some time. I understood that I had not been treated well by the mental health providers that I have been in contact with, who do not look like me and I still need help, but my options are limited. I need to come to you. And yes, seeing someone that looks like you was the initial point of contact, but we also can’t guarantee because two look alike that they actually practice alike.

I do offer that space of safety and a place of security. And lack of judgment. That’s the other thing as well. So, once I’m able to start to foster that’s where the healing starts. And I think that’s some of the most important pieces to get somebody from a place of I’m not going for help or whatever, because they’ve already had a, maybe some negative experience or the anticipate the negative experiences.

So being able to foster that culture of safety and security is one of the most important things that I look for and do in my practice,

[00:18:13] Suzanne F. Stevens: Which is so important, no matter who is listening to this interview? You’re creating a social impact or you’re not creating one. One of the best ways to foster trust is by having a social impact to have a social impact, be it through volunteerism. And at the end of the day, I have no problem and strongly believe making money while having a social impact is actually the way to sustainability. So, I think it’s a very important part of it. But when people can volunteer to make that connection for that trust, I think it’s very important.

And usually, that’s not why you do it, but that’s the residual of doing it.

So, I want to go back to a question I skipped over. A big question. Okay. What barriers do Canadian women have, and why do you think they have them?

[00:19:06] Dr. Natasha Williams: It’s interesting. And I’m glad you put you frame the question that way in terms of Canadian women because I think a lot of times what we do is we make a very generalized, sweeping question of black women.

And the reason I love the way you frame the question is because we also have to understand the black Canadian experience. At the same time, there are some similarities to our sisters and brothers in the U.S or sisters or brothers in England; it doesn’t mean that it’s apples for apples.

So, thank you for the framing of that question. What’s interesting with, I believe, the Canadian black experience is that it is an immigrant experience for the most part. You do have a sub-section of indigenous black who have generations here in the country. Still, quite a few of the black community and black women, in particular, have an immigrant experience.

It has been a bit of a barrier in terms of accessing help. And again, for many reasons, we bring about the stigma of mental health and mental illness. Many of the black women who’ve come here from the Caribbean have come on their own before even bringing either spouses or children and all of these kinds of things.

You have an underlying what we call a separation and reunification aspect in the community. So yes, they’re asking for help, but again, if we’re going back to the strong black woman complex, I need to keep my family together. So even though I’ve left children and now that they’re coming back, that expense, I have to work on keeping my family together.

I don’t have time to go to a therapist or go do this and go do that. I have to take care of all of this. So that’s where that strong black woman complex comes back in again. The other piece of it, I do believe as well, which I think is of the utmost importance, is that there is an inherent belief that there’s only one type of therapy.

And this is, I think, another thing as well; when we talk about access, we also make the assumption that a black woman has to go outside of herself, make her arrangements and whatever to go to the therapist and get the therapy. And what we noticed, and especially from an African-centered dynamic, is that if you want to heal the community, you have to go into the community.

So healing can ensue in so many different ways. It is not about the ivory tower alone; go to the nine to five, go into the office. That psychotherapy is great. But African centered is truly going to look at how do you go into the community, go into the community spaces, go into the homes, wherever the healing needs to happen that’s what has to happen. But unfortunately, we are in a Westernized society that believes that everything has to be outside of self. And I think that becomes a barrier because we’re only focused on a very Westernized aspect.

[00:21:59] Suzanne F. Stevens: I’m getting shivers from what you’re saying because it is just so true.

And when anyone has a social impact, ultimately, you have to go to the other person. You have to. They cannot come to you. You have to go to meet them where they’re at in their culture and their environment under their values and circumstances. It is such an important message. And thank you for sharing that with us. And thank you for your comment about the black Canadian woman. I do think that’s a very important piece because we often, and we’ve seen it over the last two years, right? Everyone. Oh, that’s the States. That’s the U.S. That’s the U.S. that does that? No. We’re seeing too much in Canada that has been under the carpet and now is being exposed in real, meaningful ways.

When I introduced you, I mentioned typical self-care to radical self-care by redefining selfishness.

[00:22:59] Dr. Natasha Williams: Yes.

[00:23:00] Suzanne F. Stevens: Tell us how that shows up in the people you work with.

[00:23:04] Dr. Natasha Williams: Thank you for that. Yes, what’s so interesting is that a lot of times when we’re looking at taking care of self, a lot of times as women and in particular as black women, we relegate ourselves to last. And we only bring in any kind of self-care when we’re in a desperate mode.

When our health is starting to fail, or whatever the case may be, we are reactive and not proactive. And I think that’s one of the first things we have to look at. Typical self-care while it is nice at the time. So for example, manicures, pedicures, those kinds of things, these are great things to do, but when you’re in the space of, then I got to go, I have to do them with guilt, and then when I come back home, I’m like, oh, I only carved up this much time because that’s all I could afford. It comes from a place of reaction, but it comes from a place of, I shouldn’t have it, but I need this where we talk about radical self-care. We talk about changing mindset first before you even ensue, half of those behaviors. It understands our worth as women as human beings and what we are capable of, but what we’ve known to be worthy of.

And once we’re able to start with the mindset, that’s where all of these other behaviors can be done unapologetically. And I usually quote the, on the Vanzant saying that it’s not about selfish its self-full. So being able to redefine selfishness, we understand that we have to make sure that our cup is full first before we can be of service to others and whom we choose; just because we’re women, it doesn’t mean that we have to serve our spouses, our children, whatever. We then choose whom we want to serve or take care of or whatever the case may be. I think a lot of times we embody that as part of womanhood to become this great woman, we have to be a sacrificial lamb, putting ourselves on the back burner, radical self-care brings us to the forefront and make sure that we are functioning holistically body, mind, and spirit so that we can be the best version of ourselves, mother, wife, friend, whomever. We have to move ourselves from the back to the front.

[00:25:18] Suzanne F. Stevens: Now, do you find that black women, do they have barriers to accepting the notion that you’re putting forward?

[00:25:25] Dr. Natasha Williams: Yeah. Yes, definitely. I find that it is a bit, it’s a bit challenging because we have been trained, and it’s been ingrained in us to relegate ourselves to last because our womanhood and our black womanhood have been defined by that self-sacrifice. We are putting everybody else ahead of us. Our health could be failing, but oh, she’s doing it for the greater good. So there is a, there’s almost a reward for all of this. And, we add other things like religion and a lot of the religious aspects that a lot of black women have been raised in. I was raised in a Christian household.

So many Christian religious paradigms also seep into the culture and add to this whole notion of self-sacrifice to our detriment. So initially, you can hear a lot of what has been generationally woven into our psyche. And that’s what makes the barriers a bit difficult once we’re able to understand that where a lot of this generational stuff has been implanted, we can start to dismantle some of it. Cause we can get to a space where we can start saying: ” why do believe after all of this time this is true? We start to challenge some of this, this is where we can start to create our own freedom. I tell a lot of women, what I’m asking you to do is take off the Cape, rip it apart, sow it back as you want it and put it back on. Do it on your own terms and create your own rules. And using that metaphor is what helps them to start to get unstuck and live life on their own terms.

[00:27:00] Suzanne F. Stevens: And I’m really happy you brought up the religious element because I do think that has such a huge weight. Even in my experience, that was the one thing that was so profound is belief. I had seen in the black community that I had never experienced before that degree. There’s belief, and then there’s commitment and celebration. It is such an essential element. I’ll be straight with you. My company name is You, Me, We. You is first for the reason of social impact, because you need to understand the other person. But admittedly, my husband would say to me; I will always be before you. I’m not going to lie to you, that was almost a marriage barrier. But I can tell you 10 years now with the gentlemen nearly 18 years, but it took me 10 years to understand what he meant.

And recently I said to friends, this is the year of Me. And I don’t know if they understood what I meant or if they just thought, oh, Suzanne switching it up. I understand what you mean by that. And I don’t even have children. If I had children that would be a whole other layer.

W we innately as women have a lot of us have that. And I do agree with you that, again, your experience in this, but just my limited experience, I see it even more so with black women. And that religious piece, I think, plays a huge role in that.

[00:28:43] Dr. Natasha Williams: Yeah, absolutely. I could speak to the Christian religion, but then, we do have many black women in the community of Islamic faith in that kind of thing as well.

I find that religion plays a huge role, and it’s interwoven in our culture in terms of the paradigms and things that we believe. What’s also fascinating is that some of the work that I do is actually in churches because some of the churches actually perpetuate the stigma of mental illness.

So the same churches that many of us as black individuals will go to for support and sanctuary and a place of solace has also been a place of burden and being almost exonerated out of the church for the sake of not lack of understanding of mental health and mental illness and shunning people away because it’s not about a mental illness. You’re just not praying hard enough, or your faith is not strong enough. So there ends up. Elements of blame, as well, also occur. As I said, it’s not a; it’s not a, a black and white or all or nothing kind of concept. But what ends up happening is that while religion has been a cornerstone for a lot of us as a black community, in particular black women, just take a look at the black churches and see it is majority black women in those churches.

There’s also the other element that we can’t shove under the rug in terms of the church’s contribution to the perpetuation of the stigma of mental illness, which has also caused quite a bit of harm in our community.

[00:30:13] Suzanne F. Stevens: Yeah. Thank you for that. And thanks, Natasha, for the comment on the custom design cape. I was thinking about what would my Cape look like? And I think, I don’t know if you do that exercise, but I think that would be a great way is getting people to make their Cape out of sustainable fabrics.

[00:30:32] Dr. Natasha Williams: Ooh, I think that would be so interesting. Yes, I don’t do it precisely that way, but I think that would be brilliant because it gives a visual element to what you are and the metaphor. And when you see it in front of you, it has a significant impact. Yeah, definitely.

[00:30:49] Suzanne F. Stevens: Beyond counseling, do you connect with your patients in any other format?

[00:30:55] Dr. Natasha Williams: Yeah, there are other formats as well. Part of it is that we do groups as well. Many times, community outings and community events go to the community health centers or the community hubs and engage with community, there are communing with the community there as well.

At a time, pre-pandemic, I would coordinate health and wellness days. So we can provide those types of outlets for the community to come in and engage, interact, have access to professionals. So I find that having those different ways, other than the one-on-one psychotherapy, has to occur. Podcasts, like all of these types of avenues so that you can reach people in several different formats.

Again, it has to go beyond the ivory tower in my office, one-on-one. So I think we have to use different modalities and different ways to meet the community.

Did you just say that you have groups come together, and you’ll also have groups of therapists as well?

The groups of therapists. We actually haven’t done this formally, but we do support one another.

So there is a group of us as therapists with different disciplines: registered psychotherapists, social workers, the CYW, those kinds of things where we support one another. And we do it informally, but it’s also important that we as clinicians who are doing the work in the community and support one another.

No one’s work is less than another. Still, when we talk about the decolonizing aspect of the work and being able to bring the, bring our gifts and talents to the community, and especially in a way that is not harming the community, those are all the ones of us as practitioners we do take the time out to actually connect and support one another, lift one another and commiserate with one another as well because a lot of us are tired.

We’ve been two years into this, into the COVID pandemic, but I will also say the racial pandemic as well, which has absolutely blown up anything. That was under the rugs. The rug was pulled out; everything was exposed. And again, as you were mentioning Suzanne before, it wasn’t just a U.S. thing. The veil opened up when George Floyd was murdered. Yes. But Regis Korchinski-Paquet, , that occurred right here in Toronto as well. And that opened up an actual ugly veil of racial discrimination and white privilege and all of these kinds of things that us as black clinicians and just as black individuals we’ve been struggling with and trying to cope with as well as heal our community while we’re also looking at our own traumas and healing as well.

So we do get together as a community of therapists and not only just myself, there are other ones that I’ve seen that have come up, as a result, to really support one another because the work is hard and the trauma is very real.

[00:33:51] Suzanne F. Stevens: I’m going to dive into that just a little more in a moment because it’s such a meaningful conversation.

 What is your ultimate goal, particularly for black women?

[00:34:02] Dr. Natasha Williams: My ultimate goal for black women is to be whom they were designed to be without compromise. And I think that message has been muddled over the years with much rhetoric of anti-black racism, of much junk. And I want to bring black women back to a place of understanding our power and the power that we hold. Many times we don’t know because many things have been fed to us in terms of what others believe we should be. And I would want my impact to be taking those people off of the throne and putting God on the throne and really understanding what you were designed to do and be.

So, if I can empower women to be whomever they want to be unapologetically. Then I know that what I’ve been designed to do, and my gifts and talents have come to the full.

[00:34:55] Suzanne F. Stevens: And I, yeah, mic drop. Now I’ve had the honor of hearing you speak a couple occasions, you must see yourself as an advocate.

[00:35:06] Dr. Natasha Williams: Yes.

[00:35:08] Suzanne F. Stevens: And how does that show up? In your work?

[00:35:12] Dr. Natasha Williams: It’s amazing because I use it as a healing tool. It is one of the tools of healing that I use to impart on others.

Because many times, especially when you have many clients coming in, who are dealing with anti-black racism, workplace discrimination, and racial discrimination, what comes into play as hopelessness. This is a system that has been predicted for centuries.

How do we navigate through this? There’s much hopelessness. And it’s actually in the place of advocacy that I try to infuse that within the therapeutic setting so that they can now, understand that the hopelessness doesn’t have to be there. Advocacy can look like different things for different people.

And that for me is the most important. Suppose I can instill that in them. Advocacy can mean the person that’s marching on the street and protesting. It can be the person who is now making sure that they have a space in the boardroom when policies and procedures are being created so that they are in the room and their voices in the room.

So, it’s those types of things where we’re like, what is it that the system has that we’re able to be a part of and be a part of that conversation. So that advocacy is important. And that’s what I impart in any kind of therapeutic setting. In any of the keynotes or anything that I do. Advocacy has to be a part of it because it’s in the hopelessness that we lose ourselves.

So, it’s trying to remove that hopelessness, in, by embedding the advocacy in our healing.

[00:36:49] Suzanne F. Stevens: I have a keynote called harness your feminine power, and it’s about celebrating how feminine energy shows up differently and how we’d been suppressing it for years in boardrooms dining rooms, everywhere.

And I was told that we don’t hire any speakers that go near feminist issues, and it was first a female conference. I can’t talk about the power of being female? And in this day and age to respond that way.

I, too, advocate for women empowerment, and I couldn’t show up as myself. It was really interesting in this day and age for that kind of response, which leads me to my question.

How important do you think it is for people to be advocates?

[00:38:04] Dr. Natasha Williams: Oh 100%. I truly believe that again, the healing is partly in the advocacy, because if we believe we cannot advocate for ourselves, then we now turn around and we embody a spirit of hopelessness. So advocacy is of the utmost importance.

Here’s the other thing as well. I think many times where many people get stuck is in what they believe the definition of advocacy is. Advocacy has such a broad definition, and it is on a continuum. It’s not just an and or kind of thing. Let’s look at the continuum and see where you lie on that continuum of advocacy.

And from there, we can then look at how your healing can ensue as a result. I have one client who was feeling a lot of pressure in her workplace and felt that she was being targeted, being a black woman, for her to then go and understand that she can go to her HR. In her HR, there were specific criteria of things that she could do to advocate for herself.

She said I had no idea that those things were afforded to me. Something as simple as asking those questions so that she can utilize what is already in the system for her to have her voice heard. Do we say that it has the absolute result? Not necessarily, but in the advocacy was, I can open up my eyes to see what systems are in place that I can use to make sure that my voice is heard. Something as simple as that is advocacy. But many people don’t even believe that is advocacy.

[00:39:47] Suzanne F. Stevens: Do you think. That a person needs to be of the same race, culture, ability, size to be an advocate for someone in a different race, culture, ability, or size?.

[00:39:58] Dr. Natasha Williams: No, not necessarily. Because I know we talk about the whole concept of allyship. And I think that ended up itself has a whole very complicated connotation, which is definitely not enough time to really unpack that here.

But I do believe that there is a space for, persons of different races, cultures, ethnicities to align with somebody else from another culture. But I think there are also ways in means that someone else from that culture can be an ally. Without being either overbearing or actually not becoming an ally, but actually looking for a pedestal to actually have a microphone and speak for themselves.

So, I think there’s a difference, but there is space there. Is just understanding how to take up that space without actually causing more harm.

[00:40:45] Suzanne F. Stevens: Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for that. Now, you’ve created a great practice and also a great business as a speaker and using the number of vehicles to reach people where they’re at, although I’m sure it hasn’t all been a bed of roses. What are the two most challenging hurdles to sustain your social impact and how did you overcome them?

[00:41:11] Dr. Natasha Williams: Ooh, that’s a great question. Sustainability is tough. And I think the reason why is because I think you always have to show up. And I think that’s the interesting piece. I’m not saying that I have to be on the grind 24 hours a day, seven days a week.

But I think what’s important is to understand the balance between being there, being present, being visible so that you’re not forgotten. But I think also at the same time, being able to carve the space for my boundaries. Because you will burn out very quick if you think I have to be there and present at all times.

I’ve learned over the years, I cannot be all people to all persons. I have to understand what is for me and what I have to say no to. I cannot help absolutely everybody as much as I would love to help as many as I can. At the end of the day, I also have to know what my barriers are, what my limits are and saying, no doesn’t make me any less. It actually provides the space that I need to help and have the greatest impact with the amount of people that I can. So that, I think the sustainability over the years has been what is the balance so that I don’t put myself out. And then I actually do myself a disservice.

[00:42:31] Suzanne F. Stevens: Was there a moment in time, something that happened where you acknowledged that you too can get consumed with your social initiative?

[00:42:40] Dr. Natasha Williams: Yeah, I was literally working seven days a week. I would not stop. I was doing something every day now. I still work quite a bit and I ended up, I could hear people already chatting to you still work. I don’t know what you’re talking about. But no, I literally used to work seven days a week. I would see clients from Monday to Saturday and then Sunday I would be writing reports and doing proposals and all of that kind of stuff. And it’s when I decided to implement the concept of Sabbath where you know as Christians, we understand that the Sabbath, Sundown on Friday to sundown on Saturday and different denominations we’ll practice it a bit differently. Some of them, some adhere to it, very strictly and others understand the concept but are not as strict. What I needed to do was do it for myself on various levels. So I implemented that in my life where I said, you know what, the minute the sun goes down on Friday, I’m done the laptop turns off.

I am not working. I don’t check an email. I don’t do any of that stuff. And I’m taking the time to replenish and rejuvenate. So that’s what I had to implement that because I slowly saw myself burn out. And once I put that in, I’m more productive now than I was when I was burning the candle at both ends and working literally seven days a week.

[00:43:57] Suzanne F. Stevens: My Sabbath starts at three o’clock on Saturday and goes till Monday morning. I’m with you on that, that taking that one day for me is my savior.

 During the pandemic, a lot of people’s businesses have been challenged and you were mentioning earlier, and then I want to bring it full circle that a lot of people, may not be able to afford your services as well. So I was thinking, okay, Dr. Natasha Williams business probably had a really tough time during this pandemic. What say you?

[00:44:33] Dr. Natasha Williams: It was very interesting because a lot of psychologists, we were doing everything face-to-face, you come into the office, or I would go to a clinic to see the client. So, a lot of it was face-to-face. So once the pandemic hit March 2020, and all of that face-to-face stuff, that’s where the issue was.

What was interesting is that my clinic, we already had a secondary portal where we had the infrastructure to do virtual work, but we weren’t using it. I didn’t even sign up for it. I’m like, yeah, we have it just in case, but I see all of my clients face to face. So, we had no problem. The minute the pandemic hit I signed up really quick. I was like, oh, that’s time to sign up and let’s get our clients on board. So it was being able to transition into that sort of virtual space, where we started seeing clients virtually. The clinics that I was contracted to they also had to understand what some of the nuances were with seeing clients virtually once that shift happened, and that took about maybe about a month or two into the pandemic to thoroughly understand how we can do a lot of this work virtual. It doesn’t replace doing it in person, but the minute that we transitioned that way, everything opened back up and then some. Because now we have a lot more access to a lot more people just by virtue of being able to do a lot of things virtually.

So that’s where there was an initial stagnation and a lot of, anxiety and worry. But then going into the transitioning into online, things have exploded exponentially as a result,

[00:46:05] Suzanne F. Stevens: Which is great. And congratulations. Now, if people can’t afford you or someone in the practice is there a way for them to get help?

[00:46:17] Dr. Natasha Williams: Yeah. It’s difficult and challenging. And that’s, I think the difficulty of the mental health system in Ontario, never mind in Canada. Canada significantly underfunded mental health services in comparison to the health budget that we have. And it’s been seen and known and proven over and over again.

Usually what we do is we’ll talk about what is government funded. So, a lot of times we will look at for example, GP psychotherapists. So, these are our medical doctors who are psychotherapists, which means there will be covered under the OHIP system. That is one area, second area we looked at is we talk about psychiatrists who are also covered under OHIP, but they don’t necessarily some of them do, but most of them don’t do psychotherapy. Literally it’s medication and medication management.

Third avenue we would look at community health centers and family health teams who usually have a mental health department or mental health services usually done by social workers or psychotherapists. Difficulty there is that a lot of times there’s a significant wait anywhere from six months to a year because they are overwhelmed and overloaded.

And then from there, usually if people are going to come and see myself, we’re not covered by OHIP for example, but we’re covered by extended health. So a lot of times you have people that are working and have benefits and don’t even know that their benefits will cover us. We look at sort of different insurances auto insurance, WSID but extended health as other avenues to get access to us in different ways and means. So there are these ways, but it’s still presents a lot of challenges for the community to get access.

[00:47:58] Suzanne F. Stevens: Thanks for sharing that with our audience, because I think it’s important that people realize that if you need help knowing you need it, and then when you need, it are two different things, which again, I could talk to you for five hours. But we are going to move along.

What ripple effect have you observed, if any, with the work that you do?

[00:48:25] Dr. Natasha Williams: I think when we talk about ripple effect, I see a few things. I found that when people come and they get to the space where they feel vulnerable enough to share and to start that healing process, once they open up that ripple effect ends up being actually a thing of beauty, to be very honest. Because now you see the person open up to the person that they were always meant to be.

It’s almost like you could see shackles starting to really just break because they’re able to again see themselves for who they are. But on top of that, embrace the journey of where they want to go. Whereas when before they came, you could see that there was a lot of cloudiness and really a lot of dull, but a lot of despair because I’ve been doing this or I’ve been living life like this for such a long period of time. I don’t know what else, but I know that this is not where I want to go. So being able to see that ripple effect where you can see the healing start. Because I’m just an agent for it. The healing has to continue, but I can provide the tools and the skills to start the healing, and then they take it from there.

And that ripple effect is great because I’ll see clients and then will now contact me again and just, give me updates of where they are in their healing journey. What have they done, where they have gone. And that to me has been, I think the most amazing thing. And that’s what brings me pure joy, because then I know that the gifts and talents that God has given me, I am now being able to see the fruits of them.

And that for me is the greatest gift.

[00:50:03] Suzanne F. Stevens: And everyone they touch, everyone they touch that there’s a different, would you’ve as we go into our rapid-fire questions, I think you answered the first one. How has your clinical psychology provided meaning in your life?

[00:50:16] Dr. Natasha Williams: Oh, that’s it. Because to me clinical psychology is a title, but under the title or the gifts and talents that God has given me.

And being able to be able to know that I was created to do this and share this with the world. It has been the greatest gift.

[00:50:32] Suzanne F. Stevens: Is there one thing you wish you knew prior to becoming a clinical psychologist?

[00:50:37] Dr. Natasha Williams: The number of years that it would take to become a clinical psychologist. That was it. I kept on going to school and going to school and I was like 10 years, 11 years later. I’m like, oh geez, this is long. So if I knew then what I knew now, but it was all worth it though.

[00:50:55] Suzanne F. Stevens: What have you done that has made you uncomfortable? But if you did not do it, you would not have had the impact that you are having.

[00:51:04] Dr. Natasha Williams: This is a longer story for another day, but I’ll be very honest. It was the, it was my divorce. It was my divorce. There was a lot of things that were happening in my marriage that I had to leave. And it was in my leaving that propelled me to where I am at this point, in terms of the skills and tools and knowledge that I use now to help other women in particular.

[00:51:27] Suzanne F. Stevens: Your power to help them find their power.

[00:51:29] Dr. Natasha Williams: Absolutely

[00:51:31] Suzanne F. Stevens: The worst piece of advice you ever received.

[00:51:39] Dr. Natasha Williams: Yeah. It’s so interesting. I think I was just actually speaking about this yesterday. I think someone was telling me about and this is years ago about, yeah, you’re cute, if you lost a little bit of weight, you’d be really cute.

And I’m like, and I fought that for a long time. And then I’m like no, I’m healthy. I’m cute. And I’m curvy. So that’s just fine. So

[00:51:58] Suzanne F. Stevens: Gotta love those curves.

[00:52:00] Dr. Natasha Williams: You could take your advice and give it to somebody else. That’s

[00:52:04] Suzanne F. Stevens: The best piece of advice you’ve ever received.

[00:52:07] Dr. Natasha Williams: Oh, my mother gave me the best advice, even though she was a, it wasn’t around long.

You can be whomever. It is that you want to be. There’s nothing stopping you from being whoever it is you want to be. Because there was always this paradigm of, because you’re a woman, there’s certain things and she squashed that real quick. She goes, you can be absolutely anything you want to be just go and do it.

[00:52:31] Suzanne F. Stevens: Which of your strengths do you rely on most to have the success you have achieved,

[00:52:38] Dr. Natasha Williams: Which strengths? And it’s so interesting. You hear the word strengthen, you think physical strength. It’s it’s faith. It’s my faith. My faith is my strength. I will say that unapologetically because I think without it, the other strengths don’t come about. That faith I have in the relationship I have with God has powered me to two great places.

And I know we’ll continue to do so.

[00:52:58] Suzanne F. Stevens: Great. Besides yours, which beneficiary do you think needs the most investment of time research and money?

[00:53:08] Dr. Natasha Williams: Ooh, to be very honest. I did a lot of years in the community health center sector. And I truly believe that they need an injection of time, energy resources, like none other.

They are seeing clients and they’re seeing such a surge of issues that I think they’re being underfunded. And I’ve sat on their boards and that kind of thing, significantly underfunded. And I truly believe that the grass work and the community work that they’re doing, community health centers truly need that funding and that assistance.

[00:53:42] Suzanne F. Stevens: What leadership advice do you have for people who want to have a social impact?

[00:53:48] Dr. Natasha Williams: Be unapologetic to be a leader. You don’t have to question everybody else, stand strong in what you know and who you are. And as a leader, others will know and appreciate that and respect that.

[00:54:03] Suzanne F. Stevens: Now, I don’t know Natasha, if you have any children, but if you did have a 10 year old daughter today, what advice would you give her?

[00:54:15] Dr. Natasha Williams: Oh, that’s an excellent question, because my niece is 10. So you know the advice I give her is you can do absolutely anything. I teach her everything that I’ve learned from my mother to my father as well. So, there’s no gendered roles or anything. I teach her anything from, grilling in the back in our barbecue to, being able to, cook a meal, nothing gendered you learning how to do everything.

And it’s not about, it’s not about your gender or your sex.

[00:54:54] Suzanne F. Stevens: What advice do you wish you received?

[00:54:56] Dr. Natasha Williams: I wish I received that advice a little bit stronger because as much as my mother said it, I know she was still in a very a gendered space. So, we, you would get these very gendered kind of messages such as, if you don’t know how to cook and clean, you’ll never have a husband.

And I’m like, geez, I guess I’m going to be single. Just kidding. But yeah I wish that I didn’t get that kind of advice. Those are some of the things I had to fight.

[00:55:23] Suzanne F. Stevens: Now I suspect I know the answer to this one, but you never know. Who’s the greatest female influence in your life?

[00:55:29] Dr. Natasha Williams: Easily, my mother.

[00:55:32] Suzanne F. Stevens: Yeah. Which is so beautiful. And what three values do you live by?

[00:55:36] Dr. Natasha Williams: Faith. Hard work consistency and patience. I’ve learned those things along the way.

[00:55:46] Suzanne F. Stevens: Thank you for that, Dr. Natasha Williams, and thank you for those of you that were able to join us live. You can subscribe to You, Me, We amplified podcast. So you receive each new interview notification in your inbox with other. Please share this interview by going to the share button located on the page. Each of our guests has their own page with their bio’s or contact information, not their home phone numbers, just emails, not their emails, either, actually their websites it’s all there.

So the interview is available in podcast, transcript and video. So you can digest it in any way you want. And if you want to grow your social impact, join the YouMeWe community women leading social impact. Visit us at YouMeWe dot CA and you’ll find the community page.

And I’m coming back to you and Natasha, for the final words, do you have any words of wisdom for our audience regarding making a contribution to society?

[00:56:43] Dr. Natasha Williams: Understand that your contribution to society is needed. Is valued and is respected. So make sure that what you do, you do it well because our society needs you.

[00:56:58] Suzanne F. Stevens: Amen. It’s been saying that a few times say thank you so much for joining us and thank you Dr. Natasha Williams for your contribution because it definitely does count.

And until next time, make your contribution count for you. Me, we.